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Hagen versus homemade formula

12K views 53 replies 19 participants last post by  anonapersona 
#1 ·
Hi, I was just wondering what is the difference between the Hagen co2 formula and the DIY one? Does the Hagen work better? Anyone use it in a 2 litre pop bottle?
I have never seen it in action, so I don't know. They had it on the back of a tank at the pet shop the other day but it had run out; so never got to see the ladder working on it.
Thanks for any replies.
Wendy
 
#3 ·
Well thanks JoJo that is good to know:). Are you getting a bubble a second with this setup? Just curious as with three 2 litre bottles and one ladder I am getting about one bubble a second to one bubble every second and a half; so I was just wondering what the canister puts out.
Thanks for any replies.
Wendy
 
#5 ·
wendyv said:
Well thanks JoJo that is good to know:). Are you getting a bubble a second with this setup? Just curious as with three 2 litre bottles and one ladder I am getting about one bubble a second to one bubble every second and a half; so I was just wondering what the canister puts out.
Thanks for any replies.
Wendy
During the first week, yeah... but it's slowing down now. Maybe it's time to change the solution. After 2 weeks, it will probably be slowed down too much...
 
#6 ·
I've got a Hagen set-up, but I've gotten a couple of duds in the formula packages (dead yeast, I'm guessing). I've checked all the stores in my neighbourhood and all the formula they have in stock is pushing the 18 month expiry date marked on the packages.

So I'm thinking of keeping the Hagen bottles, but making my own formula. I've seen the recipes posted all over the place, but the one piece of information I never see is what kind of yeast to use? Is it regular "traditional" yeast? Or "instant" or "fast-acting" yeast?

And does anyone know the purpose of the "stabilizer" that's provided with the Hagen formula?
 
#7 ·
Amanda, what most of the people are using from what I gather is the regular Fleishmanns and I would imagine that the "stabilizer" (my guess) is baking soda. Just a guess as I am sure that the people on these boards know more then me. The only thing I am wondering is with the small container that comes with the Hagen setup; do you add the same amount of sugar to the water; I have no idea. My recipe from these boards and others is 2 cups sugar fill the 2 litre bottle half way with hot water and shake it up real well. Add 1/2 teaspoon of yeast to a little water with a pinch of sugar in a cup and let it rise a bit. Meanwhile add cold water to the bottle almost to the line to get room temp. water; then add 1 teaspoon baking soda. When the yeast has risen a bit; rises to top of the water; add it to the bottle and add enough water to get it to the line in the bottle. Usually takes at the most about 1 hour to get it going. Works really well for about a week or so; but then the bubbles slowly decrease; so I like to make up a mixture once a week. I am thinking of going to a large pail (10 kg's) and making only up one batch instead of 3 small bottles. Guess I would have to put quite a bit of sugar into the 10 kg pail as that is like 5 bottles; since I do 2 cups per 2 litre bottle, guess I would add 10 cups of sugar to the pail; anyone know if I should also add more yeast; for ex. 2 1/2 teaspoons, and 5 teaspoons of baking soda? This is just a test; so I have no idea?
Thanks for any imput.
Wendy
 
#8 ·
When I refill the Hgen canister, I fill it to the line inside with sugar and then to the top line with water, then add 1/4 teaspoon fleishmans yeast, rugular I guess, and 1 teaspoon baking soda.

You can't fit 2 cups of sugar into that canister, if you did you couldn't get much water in there to go with it.
 
#9 ·
anonapersona said:
When I refill the Hgen canister, I fill it to the line inside with sugar and then to the top line with water, then add 1/4 teaspoon fleishmans yeast, rugular I guess, and 1 teaspoon baking soda.

You can't fit 2 cups of sugar into that canister, if you did you couldn't get much water in there to go with it.
How fast do your bubbles come out with this setup and how long does it last for you?
 
#10 ·
The baking soda or stabilizer act as the buffer. The solution will become acidic overtime and will kill the yeast solution. By adding this, you'll somewhat prolong the solution's life.

I don't have much success using Fleishmann (spelling?) yeast. I did everything as told to activate the yeast first, etc. It takes long before the first bubble comes out and the production amount drops after 5-7 days. I switched to Redstar and get very good result. The first bubble comes out in 20-30 minutes or less, more pressure, constant and last much longer. (Both are regular active dry yeast and not super). It even starts well without proper yeast activation. I'm not sure whether my tap water has something to do with those results because I heard more people here use Fleishman.
 
#11 ·
start at maybe 6 to 10 bubbles a minute, then I change it at about 3 weeks.
 
#12 ·
I have 2 hagen canisters supplying one ladder in my tank, to minimize the fluctuation of co2 during replenishing. Each canister has a valve controlling its output. The sequence of replenisment is such that when one get refilled the other is at the max reaction rate. I would shut off the valve of the one being refilled so as not to disturb the flow.
I am thinking of adding one more canister to boost the output.
 
#13 ·
Hi d2hpeter; your name is probably peter I presume:), how big is your tank that you added the two canisters system to? I was just wondering if you added the two canisters to the one ladder and had them going at the same time if you would get more bubbles using the two going at the same rate as the one? Just a curiosity. Sounds like a smart idea though to have them going at different replenishment rates.
 
#14 ·
wendyv said:
Hi d2hpeter; your name is probably peter I presume:), how big is your tank that you added the two canisters system to? I was just wondering if you added the two canisters to the one ladder and had them going at the same time if you would get more bubbles using the two going at the same rate as the one? Just a curiosity. Sounds like a smart idea though to have them going at different replenishment rates.
mine is a 2ft tank.
by the law of conservation :idea: the flowrate should increase, though not necessarily doubled. The main objective is to "smooth" the fluctuation in the co2 flow. There would be a period of zero flow following replenishment if only one canister is used.
But of course, one could really boost up the flow by connecting more canisters or have a bigger capacity reactor. The issue is how to balance flowrate and the degree of fluctuation, i think.
 
#15 ·
If you run two canisters into the same diffuser, as the rates decline you will eventually get two bubbles put out at the same time. They will collide, turning into a big bubble, then race to the top smashing and absorbing all bubbles in their path. Most of the gas escapes at the surface. The ladder diffuser is cheap, get two, or get two entire systems.

IME, I was not happy with mixing DIY bottles with the ladder diffuser, somehow the bubbles were too large and much gas escaped at the top unused.

If your tank is near 30 gallons, go on and make or buy a power diffuser and go DIY for the whole thing. Really the first thing to do is to look at your filtration to see if that is causing CO2 to escape. Changing to a canister filter or somehow reducing surface disturbance can make a big difference in CO2 retention.
 
#16 ·
anonapersona said:
If you run two canisters into the same diffuser, as the rates decline you will eventually get two bubbles put out at the same time. They will collide, turning into a big bubble, then race to the top smashing and absorbing all bubbles in their path. Most of the gas escapes at the surface. The ladder diffuser is cheap, get two, or get two entire systems.

IME, I was not happy with mixing DIY bottles with the ladder diffuser, somehow the bubbles were too large and much gas escaped at the top unused.
don't quite understand what you mean... i hv only one tube to one ladder. Don't see why 2 bubbles can come out at the same time. I have been running this setup for months and so far i hv got a nice series of bubbles going up the ladder, and they become so small in size near the top, reducing the buoyancy so much that the bubble moves very slowly. The bubble release rate from the tube was just right to give about 1 bubble moving in each ladder without collision. In addition, i direct the output of the internal filter at one end of tank to the top of the ladder at the other end so as to enhance the co2 absorption further.

When the rate has reduced to 1 bubble every 3~4 ladder, i will start to replenish the weaker canister. I am gradually increasing this to about 1 bubble every 5~6 ladder, monitoring the health of the plants closely. By doing this I can reach an optimum rate to sustain the plant.

btw, getting 2 entire systems [which was what i did, but only one ladder is used in tank] is an obvious solution. But one must not forget that space is precious in a 20gal tank too. Aesthetics is also an important factor to consider.
 
#17 ·
I had run two tubes to one ladder, one from the Hagen canister, one from a DIY bottle below the tank. Not an ideal setup, as I explained, collisions and so on.

somewhere I got the idea that that was being discussed, two bottles, one ladder. So i just wasn't understanding.
 
#18 ·
Mine is like d2h's. 2 brew bottles with their outlet tubes joined by a "T", so that one tube runs into a "bubble counter" bottle 3/4 full of water. From there, 1 tube goes to my ladder.

Seems to work fine.
 
#19 ·
eds said:
Mine is like d2h's. 2 brew bottles with their outlet tubes joined by a "T", so that one tube runs into a "bubble counter" bottle 3/4 full of water. From there, 1 tube goes to my ladder.

Seems to work fine.
it would be better if you could put a valve on each of the brew bottle outlet tube before the "T". This enable you to shut off the bottle you gonna to replenish so as to prevent the "pressure drop" and maintain the flow to your ladder from the other bottle.
 
#20 ·
anonapersona said:
I had run two tubes to one ladder, one from the Hagen canister, one from a DIY bottle below the tank. Not an ideal setup, as I explained, collisions and so on.

somewhere I got the idea that that was being discussed, two bottles, one ladder. So i just wasn't understanding.
one drawback i encountered about using ladder, though, is that sometimes snails get into the bubble flow path and mess it all up for a while :evil: and small fishes got trapped :x
 
#21 ·
I've had some mixed results with the Hagen yeast lately. Most of the store displays that are using the Hagen packages have been rotting, or something, and smelling so bloody awful that I needed to spray Windex all around the bathroom before dumping it so I didn't heave. Might explain why some of them didn't work - bad batches? Perhaps bad trans-shipping?

Anyways, I used the same ratio as the Hagen recipe in my DIY system (pop bottle) and it works great.
Hagen uses:
4oz sugar
12oz lukewarm tap water
4oz empty air at the top
1mL yeast (I've used non-quick rise baking yeast and wine yeast)
4mL baking soda

I scaled that up to my 2L pop bottle and twice now it has bubbled consistently for over 6 weeks (!!).

I'm not a huge fan of the Hagen bubble diffuser - you still end up losing bubbles, and then clog, get snails in them, you name it..
Tetra used to make a membrane type of diffuser which was just an internal reservoir with a thin membrane to allow CO2 to escape into the water directly with ZERO waste... But no mention of it anywhere (except here: http://www.tetra.de/doc/doc_download.cfm?uuid=96F2ABFF50BAEA7AF9B0BF440EF013E3&o_file_id=81 )

I'm fiddling around with somethign on my own to use that system, since I'm not big on using an additional powerhead or running it into my filter to diffuse bubbles. So far I've played around with the tube for a gravel vac and putting various things on the end without much luck. I'm thinking about trying an unlubricated condom and punching a lot of pinholes in it (I could name it "Chance"!) or maybe several, several layers of cheesecloth/nylon.
 
#22 ·
I had a big supply of the Hagen mix packages, so I've been using them all up and have been fairly disappointed with the results -- maybe 1 bubble every 20 seconds-ish.

Finally tried a homemade mix (posted upthread by anonapersona) and the difference is amazing! I'm getting a bubble every 5 seconds now.

I've got two ladder/canister sets, so in the other one I'm going to try the Jell-O recipe posted in this thread by tommyboy22481. I'll let y'all know how it works out for me.
 
#23 ·
I always had a problem using colored and flavored Jell-o, it just seemes wrong to me!

You can substitute Knox gelatine and save several bucks.

I use the Knox Blox recipe on the back of the Knox box, substituting water with 2 cups of sugar for the fruit juice in the recipe on the box.

I am now using the Blox, 1/3 of the full recipe, in large blocks to fit into my 2L juice box generator, with 1/4 teaspoon of bread yeast (no baking soda or yeast nutrient that I had been using occasionally). It tends to fillup my power reactor with gas up to 1/2 inch deep, so it may actually overdose small tanks. 1/4 recipe might be better, in fact, as it does foam some, didn't do that when I used 1/4 of the Blox.

Anyhow, 1/4 of the Blox will last 3+ weeks, so a $1.20 pack of Knox lasts for 12 weeks. 1/3 of the Blox still lasts 3 weeks runs faster, stops more suddenly, maybe just under 3 weeks in fact.
 
#24 ·
Yeah, I wasn't comfortable with coloured/flavoured Jell-Os either, so I went with the Knox gelatin too. Used the same amount of sugar as the Hagen recipe calls for (1/2 cup), dissolved it and the Knox gelatin in boiling water, then added enough cold water to bring it up to the top level in the Hagen canister (approx. 2 cups total). It's in the fridge right now and should go on the tank tomorrow (with the yeast added, of course). :)
 
#25 ·
Oh, that is different. Do you think the gelatine will be solid?

I've never used the gelatine blocks in the Hagen canister because I worry about foam ups. There is not much air space in teh Hagen canister and no external scrubber to catch a foam up.

Keep us informed about how it goes. If you have problems, the regular bread yeast and baking soda is pretty reliable for the Hagen units.

Have fun experimenting!
 
#26 ·
I have heard that some people add a touch (pinch) of flour or so to a mixture and get an extension of production(of a mixture that is old and ready to stop)

I am going to try this.. as I have a hagen system (not completely pleased with it..but its OK...but im going to make my own systems soon.
 
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